Alcoholism & Alcoholics Anonymous: Willpower or Disease?

64 thoughts on “Alcoholism & Alcoholics Anonymous: Willpower or Disease?”

1. “The generally accepted definition for alcoholism is “people who continue to
   consume alcoholic beverages even when it negatively affects their health and the
   health of those around them.”

   I Couldn’t get much farther than that.

   If your going to write a paper like this and call it science, try better grammar. And putting a photo of guys brain that you found somewhere on the internet is not science.

   Here is a better definition of alcoholism from the NIAAA:

   Alcoholism, also known as alcohol dependence, is a disease that includes the following four symptoms:

   * Craving–A strong need, or urge, to drink.
   * Loss of control–Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.
   * Physical dependence–Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety
   after stopping drinking.
   * Tolerance–The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to get “high.”

   Try telling someone with the shakes that they just need a little willpower.

2. Avery…Dude, just the carry message. Your not breaking any tradition buy speaking in a forum about your personal experience or opinions. NOT EVEN CLOSE.. You make AA sound so darn organized and ridiclous …. ohhhh….ahhee…..aehhh.. I’m breaking tradition 10 by speaking here. But I’m a rebel! WHATEVER. Just don’t say anyone else name or shit. Unbelievable.

3. Ah yes, the steppers are here tearing apart your very honest and factual essay. But do not worry, for they know not what they say. Most of their blabber was something heard before, and has been regurgitated time and time again. Thinking that AA is a cult and not believing in the disease theory is nothing new. If you think it is then you should check this article out: http://www.eskimo.com/~burked/history/harpers.html

   Now, please let me give a little sample of what I found to be true in AA:
   After spending over 16 years in and out of AA (steppers, I know what you’re thinking, so please don’t tell me I should of just stayed,;)) and trying to find logic and reason in the disease and powerlessness theory, I finally had enough courage together to leave the program for good. And thank God (if there is one) that I left. And when I finally did leave, let me tell you, what I thought was going to happen, happened. All my ”so called” friends stopped talking to me. They acted like I never even existed. These people were people I knew for many years, but just because I stopped believing in something that wasn’t working for me, they wrote me off. And I promise anyone here who is involved in AA, if you ever get to a point where you don’t feel the same about the program that you once did, and you leave, you will be lucky to come out with 1 acquaintance. I promise you that! So, this is my major beef with AA: When you first come to AA you are love bombed. It is hard to handle in the beginning, because most people are not use to this type of behavior. (And to top it off, a new person is going to be at a very vulnerable point in his/her life, because as we know, no one coming to AA is coming for good reasons.) The love bombing you receive feels good. You really start to think that these people care about your well being. And then it gets deeper than that. You start to share intimate details and secrets with these people, thinking that they’re your best friends. You start to tell them the deepest darkest secrets of your past. You end up trusting these people with your life. But, it is all just based on the beliefs that you hold about the program. And what I mean is, you are only accepted by the program based on your acceptance of the program. Once you start to question or challenge any bit of the program you are looked at like a sick person, and the amount of shunning you receive is based on the amount of questions that you ask. If you continue to challenge and question, the shunning will be more severe. If you stop questioning and admit the fault of your “stinking thinking”, then you will be accepted back. And this is the damaging part of the program. If you are still blind as to how this could hurt someone, let me explain a little more.

   Anything that tries to hold you in it’s grips forever is not a healthy thing. And, as we all know, this is exactly what AA tries to do. People are told in the program that if they ever leave they will end up in ” jails, institutions, or death.” How is this healthy? Isn’t it healthy to motivate someone to move on after becoming well? Isn’t it healthy to grow and discover new things in this world that benefit us? How does spending the rest of your life surrounded by people that think the exact same way as you beneficial? Shouldn’t people be encouraged to be free from fear? Isn’t that all a part of growth? So, my next question would be, how is having 35 years in AA healthy? If anything, it seems the total opposite. The man who responded to your essay who claims to be a psychologist should know this. It’s called ”growth”, my friend.

   Ok peeps, let me just break down something else for you. There is almost 7,000,000,000 people in this world. In the U.S. alone, we have in excess of 2,100 different religions. There is possibly (and this may even be high) 3,000,000 in AA. Most of these people are court ordered and members that will leave in their first days. So in all honesty, you could probably cut that 3,000,000 by more than half. Now, with these numbers laid out in black and white, could you answer me one question? Is it possible that AA has the one and only answer? Ask yourself that question out loud while you look at the numbers on the screen, if you like. All I ask is that you invite a little bit of logic and reason into your answer. Trust me, it’s not going to hurt you!

   To sum it up: People quit drinking when they want. People stop acting like assholes when they want. Some people never quit drinking, and some people never stop acting like assholes. But, if you did stop drinking or you did stop acting like an asshole, then give yourself a little credit! And try not to think that some asshole in the sky made you stop because you’re special. Remember, there are people dying from hunger in the world, and kids that can’t go to school because war is in their back yard. There are elderly people dying alone, and scared, every minute. So knowing this, do you really think God is keeping you sober? Do you really believe that you are more important than all the other suffering people in the world. I don’t think you are, and I rest assured that if God does work in our lives, he/she would be helping out the people that are suffering as a result of nothing they’ve done, and not the people that are suffering by their own hands.

   MeMay Dontwasteaway@gmail.com

4. MeMay,

   I couldn’t agree with you more! Thanks for your great comment!

   Joel

5. I think A.A. was a credible group that had good intentions to help the individual that suffered from alcoholism. Now A.A. is concerned about it self as a group and uses underhanded tactics to keep people chained mentaly, moraly and spiritualy. When people come into A.A. they are down due to the nature of their problem. A.A. immediatley jumps down their throat with the 90 meetings in 90 days. That is complete brainwashing! 90/90 was not an orginal saying or philosophy in the begining days of A.A. There wern’t even 90 meetings in the whole country. Treatment Centers have used and abused A.A. and thier clients by charging large amounts for treatment that is nothing more than A.A. wraped in another package Everyone passes the blame and no one is responsible for thier own choices or actions. You have to have an understanding of “God” as we understood him. Whatever happened with how I understand him. A.A. is extremely Co-dependent. Everyone’s “recovery” is about those coffee slurping meetings where people are looking for validation from one another.

6. In order for something to be classified as a disease it has to be able to be identified in a corpse. The Standard Pathalogical Index does not have it listed. There can be symptoms of alcohol abuse” but NO DISEASE!
   What was once listed in the Psychiatic Manual as such was changed…
   We live in a world that once you label someone a victim…nothing bad can be said about them. AA started out with good intent and over the years has become a victim’s paradise and professional “ALIBI” club…they promote relapse.
   The government is pissing away millions looking for genetic cause and the cause is “self disrespect…” Happy people do not try and go to the land of oz…or are they in constant need to escape. It is a self esteem issue.
   The revolving door has been running a long time…look at the stats for how many go back to treatment for 2,3,4 or more times. It is simply a “cash cow.”
   I have never met a person who is defective or powerless…but if I go around people who tell me that as do the directions…I would probably have a good chance of believing it.
   The people who recover from themselves do so for one reason…”THEY WANT TO.” For those who want to play the GOD card…”free will makes evil possible.”
   The truth kills the diehards Joel…just keep grinding. f it helps one person turn their life around rather than them feeling like a failure…then you have had success.
   (for the literary spelling pro’s if I made any errors…I’m not perfect so you may want to try and give yourself the same opportunity).

7. Alex,

   Thank you for the great comment & support!

8. “Total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extent. In my passion for it I even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself.” MT

9. Thanks so much, it is comforting to know that there are other people who see AA for what it really is.

10. P.S. anyone interested in other articles like this should go to http://www.orange-papers.org there are many many many more articles on the subject.

11. I’m a alcoholic and was president for 2 terms, my vice president was drunk when he shot someone hunting.

12. Hey Brother,
    I really enjoyed your article. I am a member of AA and have three years of soberity. I don’t agree with alot of what you say, however there are somethings i do agree with. To start, You say about the fourth step “Except for the most basic moral check: Recognizing ones owns action and taking ownership of them,” is not completely accurate. When one takes that step they are taking a look at their actions committed during their active alcoholism, and take responsibilty for their actions. They use the information they get to go and complete their 9th step, which asks us to make amends for the harmed, whatever they may ask of us. I know of people in the program who made amends for committing crimes such as assualt, and rape, and as a result they have turned themselves in to the authroities to serve prison time for what they have done. They take responsibility.

13. You gotta luv em. Thank God they don’t have control over the world or we would be back in the dark ages. AA is a sub-culture of the inquisition and dark ages. They always have to take the most radical, dramatic example to prove a point. Again, the alcohol is blamed for the behavior and acts and not the person. “It was during their active alcoholism” when they committed the crime. I remember a story about a drunkin horse thief that got sober, but he was still a horse thief. Excuses be gone. AA is full of excuses. Let’s applaude the rapist now that they’ve turned them self in.

14. It is easy to throw around a strong term like “coward” when one hides behind an IP address. You should not have used such inflammatory terms if your goal was just to make a point. It’s too bad because there is some truth to what you say. Alcoholism is a paradox, and those trying to lable this “condition” are missing the point. I myself was an alcoholic who stopped through therapy and AA. I am not religious, but I do believe there is some thing more in this life than just chance and probabilities. I attend AA meetings because I have made friends in them who have gone through the same ordeal. That is our bond. Not religion.
    I believe the “alcoholism as a disease” debate stems from the difficulty of the alcoholic to deal with the guilt society tries to lay on alcoholics for being weak and powerless. If I had not found a way to believe alcoholism was a disease, and therefore not my fault, I would probably still be drinking. When one suffers from such an overbearing addiction such as alcoholism, one is too weak, physically and psychologically to have any willpower to quit drinking. Taking away the weight of the guilt can give one enough strength and hope to finally quit for good.
    So what I’m saying is, after 12 years of sobriety, I don’t care what alcoholism is. But I do care about a fellowship of people that quietly meet together to share on common experiences, and give each other support to become better human beings.
    On the other hand, I also believe AA is NOT enough. As you mentionned, drinking is only part of the problem of an alcoholic. Why one started drinking in the first place and conditions that may have developped during the drinking are reasons why one should consider therapy and possible medication.
    So my answer to your text is: believing alcoholism is a disease worked for me, it saved my life, as it can save the life of others.

15. Pat,

    I do not hide behind an IP address. My name an contact info are freely available on my site. 

    Joel Gross

16. Nevertheless, you are throwing around the term “coward” unfairly. Your info might be available but those comments were made online, in a space where you are protected from the immediate emotional response such comments might elicit. Don’t use terms like that. They hurt people and they don’t contribute to a constructive approach for debating the issue.

17. Hi,

    Just to give you my perspective as an atheist non-drinker. I found AA provided a good jump start (though I also did rehab), and some of the steps do make a lot of sense and I don’t agree that they’re about denying responsibility or “praying”. An addict will never ever quit unless they acknowledge they have lost control over their substance of choice. Having control implies they could have the odd pint and not end up addicted again. In those early days of recovery AA does provide a good place to go where you won’t get judged, and in those early days of recovery addicts know what arseholes they have been so don’t begrudge a little bit of psychological healing. Now some may want these people to feel bad, but there is a difference between concern about your actions and crushing self flagellation. The question of the “higher power” needn’t be anything to do with God. It made sense to me that I could not within myself stop boozing (no I don’t believe the disease theory, but there is an awful lot of rewiring that goes on with chemicals), I had tried and failed. So my higher power was just other people, physicians and others in the groups. I see what you’re saying about willpower, and yes at the beginning you make the decisions, but at the end it is not that easy.

    So I think there is a lot in AA that can help people. If you find the right group. But there is a flip side. Some members are religious nutters. Ignore them. Some preach 90 meetings in 90 days. Some say AA is the only way. Rubbish, it is a way though. The worst thing is that removing alcohol from your life creates a hole. Now to me that was a great opportunity to fill it with good things, others fill it too much with AA. In that respects I can see where the cult argument comes from. I go rarely now, but will still go. It keeps topped up in my mind what a dick you become when you’re an alcoholic.

    Take what works from AA and ignore what doesn’t, find your own way.

18. Tradition or Truth?

    The question is: “Is all tradition truth?” Traditional processes and programs have been having their way for many years with little to no change. For the sake of this space I am specifically speaking of those who are into “self abuse.” COMMONLY CALLED “alcoholic, addict, and all the cutesy names” that exist. Let’s call them what they are in group form…”alibi clubs.”
    People exercise poor choice and develop bad habits (maybe in some cases the other way around) and then add the “victim mentality.” Society has made it fashionable to go to treatment especially if you are a “self abuser.” Labels do protect victims.
    In realty people are in “pain” for every reason and excuse known to mankind. They are not ” in happy” or they would not be disrespecting themselves. They turn to an industry for help who endorses a program of tradition…with little truth. An industry who’s tradition is focused on 28 to 180 days and “you will never be cured.” “Your illness is a lifetime illness.” Your addiction is by your own doing…which by the way, is NOT classified as a disease in the Standard Pathological Textbooks. Addiction is not listed in the American Psychiatric Association Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV (DSM IV). What was once listed as alcoholism is now referred to as alcohol dependence and abuse…under substance related disorders.

    ALTERNATIVE:

    Noun 1. A choice between two or more possibilities.
    2. One of the things to be chosen.

    Adjective 1. Allowing or necessitating a choice.
    2. Existing outside conventional institutions or systems.

    Most of the people that I have had the opportunity to talk with in the “true alternative sense” openly admit that their program “is not” for everyone. Isn’t that truly a CHOICE?
    Depending on who’s report you read the Guru (AA) has around a 5 to 7% success rate. (That does show what the courts think of people who are ordered there). Medical Facilities (also depending on who’s numbers you read) has an 18 to 22% success rate…while our tax dollars are looking for genetic reasons (like anyone needs additional excuses to avid responsibility).
    There are facilities who claim 100% success and some who proclaim to be the best rated program. (However, when asked who did the rating no response ws issued).
    People collectively are still the most powerful force in the world. They have a right to demand the “best results possible” if they are willing to make a commitment to themselves. Is that where the problem lies? In accepting responsibilty we are being truthful and seeking help from traditional means and methods only to be disappointed…then turn to an alternative approach (many which are disguised but are really modified, same old garbage) to get the same results.
    There are altrnative programs that qualify “truthfully” as such based on our opening definition. They are succesful because, people who come to them are seeking a common bond…”truth.” No one is “defective” but we are all different and do not belong behind “just door a, b, or c.”
    Alternatives give us “choice, optimism, self respect and restore self esteem.”
    Life could not have been designed to give people a “label” like one word can describe a person. There are plenty who have no want, need or desire to be happy, they like the initial attention that the victim mentality affords them. When life looses meaning and purpose…people start abusing themselves to turn off the pain. Take the next step for yourself…and restore the respect you deserve and stop buying into the “garbage.”

19. Without agreeing or disagreeing with this opinion article, this is not a scientific article. One of the fundamental prerequisites for a scientific article is that you cite your sources. There is not a single citation in this opinion article. I am disappointed by the commentators with a science or medical background that have failed to mention this fact.

20. I left the cult of Alcoholics Anonymous 7 months ago and it was the best thing I ever did.
    I went to AA back in 2008 of January and I found no support or love just abuse,contempt,lots of racism,prejudice,intolerance especially for african americans (I’m Biracial)
    One thing thats a problem IS THIRTEEN Stepping. And lesbian women aren’t safe from this tactic in AA either.
    Your not protected or even warned about being the sick object of someones affection either its even encouraged!
    The last meeting I attended was back in May 09 this year.
    I am fairly attractive and one particular woman who I later realized was lesbian kept eyeing me like I was the best looking piece of meat on the platter.
    She kept trying to get me to share a book (the AA big book) with her. Kept trying to force herself on me when I was clearly not interested nor that is not the reason I was going to the meetings.

    I had had enough when after I was sharing at one meeting this woman made a last ditch desperate attempt to try at thirteen stepping me by running over to me crying,she stuck part of herself inside the window of my mothers car and she doesn’t know me! the whole scene disgusted me, and saying that I could call her if I needed to talk.
    Problem was I knew she wanted more than to “just talk”.
    It was no secret that she was attracted to me. See in AA there seems to be an unwritten type of secrecy around encouraging members with some years of sobriety to “hook up” of course AA’ers don’t tell you this its just secretly encouraged.
    Something I find reprehensible & abominable!
    Another problem inappropriate behavior.
    I walked in on a pre meeting meaning that the other cult members hadn’t arrived I was early only to find the secretary and some woman making out in the church basement coat room.
    No one bothered to say anything.
    It was treated just like “oh well”
    I’m still seeking some support for the 18 months of hell in AA.
    I need someone to talk to. But who?
    Everywhere I turn is pro AA
    Can anyone suggest a good group to talk to face to face.
    Thanks

Comments are closed.